[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[portslade seagull]

" There's none so blind as those that don't want to see "...... BTW, when did the Tory party register itself as a charity ?

Meanwhile Ukrainian soldiers are defending their country and losing their lives and you are trying to ruin the thread.
Let's keep the cheap jokes off this thread, class from you all to repeat Russian propaganda
Use the Brexit thread for Christ sake

 

[Eric the meek]

As well as this from Biden:

'Contempt for the rule of law, contempt for democratic freedom, contempt for the truth itself.',

I would have added,

'Contempt for the sanctity of human life', in recognition of all the lives so needlessly lost.

 

[Baker lite]

You're right.

That's a hugely powerful speech, directed at the whole world, but especially the Russian people, and in particular - in particular - those in the Kremlin.

A very powerful speech from Joe, I’m not 100% sure it is for the leader of the free world to be calling for regime change, however abhorrent Putin is. We had all this with Bush and Blair back in the early 2000s with Sadam, look where that got us.
Just seen, Whitehouse spokesperson rowing back on the comments.

 

[rogersix]

Powerful stuff from President Biden

"For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power."

biden calling it right, putin has got to be removed before peace breaks out

 

[portslade seagull]

biden calling it right, putin has got to be removed before peace breaks out

Sadly nobody brave enough to take the hit from withi . He will be there for a while yet. The general who dared to disagree with him whom then promptly disappeared for 2 weeks suddenly made a breakfast at Bernies appearance today. Probably will never be seen again

 

[essbee1]

Another Russian general killed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60807538

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Powerful stuff from President Biden

" "My message to the people of Ukraine... we stand with you, period," President Biden says during his speech in Warsaw, a line greeted by cheers.

"Today's fighting in Kyiv, Mariupol and Kharkiv are the latest battles in a long struggle," he says.

"Hungary in 1956, Poland in 1956 and then again in 1981, Czechoslovakia in 1968 - Soviet tanks crushed democratic uprisings but the resistance continued until finally in 1989, the Berlin Wall and all the walls of Soviet domination, they fell and the people prevailed.

"The battle for democracy could not conclude and did not conclude with the end of the Cold War.

"Over the last 30 years the forces of autocracy have revived all across the globe. Its hallmarks are familiar ones. Contempt for the rule of law, contempt for democratic freedom, contempt for the truth itself.

"Today, Russia has strangled democracy and has sought to do so elsewhere."

Biden says it is obscene that Vladimir Putin has lied by saying he is trying to de-Nazify Ukraine.

Next, Joe Biden addresses the Russian people, saying he's worked with Russian leaders for decades, since the height of the Cold War.

"I've always spoken directly and honestly to you the Russian people," he says.

"Let me say this, if you're able to listen. You the Russian people are not our enemy.

"I refuse to believe you welcome the killing of innocent children and grandparents.

"Or that you accept hospitals, schools, maternity wards for God's sake, being pummelled with Russian missiles and bombs.

"Or cities being surrounded so that civilians cannot flee, supplies cut off and attempting to starve Ukrainians into submission.

"Millions of families are being driven from their homes, including half of all Ukraine's children.

"These are not the actions of a great nation."

He closes his speech with a reference to Vladimir Putin - "For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power."

Good stuff.

I've been thinking the same since about 2014.

 

[Eric the meek]

biden calling it right, putin has got to be removed before peace breaks out

Absolutely correct.

Regime change is a pre-requisite for peace. That applies wherever the regime change comes from, be it the Russian people in a revolution, be it a coup from his Kremlin sycophants, or US/NATO troops in a final conflict.

The west must not let this opportunity pass. If they do, Putin will pass another spurious law to keep him in presidency for life, allowing him enough time to learn the lessons of his failure in Ukraine, circumvent the sanctions, re-group, re-arm, turn his attention to his next victim and rinse and repeat.

He absolutely must go.

 

[Eric the meek]

Yes, pretty much what the mood is on here, the Russian people are not the enemy, just the one man at the top. Ordinary Russians would be horrified by what is happening if they genuinely knew the truth. It unites those that care, does not brand all Russians as the enemy, but, calls for decency and understanding while highlighting the only way out is regime change.

I don't agree with you entirely.

Putin has had over 20 years to hone his skills of ruling absolutely. He will have eliminated any dissenting voices. That is why his invasion failed. Either nobody was willing to take the risk of talking him down from it, or they all actually buy into his propaganda. Listening to say, Lavrov and Sakharova, I believe these individuals really do support him. Therefore, the enemy is rather more than just one person. It would be a mistake to assume they are all sycophants. Besides, sycophancy isn't a valid defence anyway.

I would like to see them all appearing at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

I believe the excuse 'I was only following orders' has been tried before, with very limited success.

 

[Baker lite]

We might be thinking it, we might all be hoping for it, for the leader of the free world to say it, in my opinion is quite reckless.

https://twitter.com/paulembery/status/1507842164298031104?s=21&t=DBsX4ShZn3_iRg_wVz62kw

 

[Eric the meek]

We might be thinking it, we might all be hoping for it, for the leader of the free world to say it, in my opinion is quite reckless.

https://twitter.com/paulembery/status/1507842164298031104?s=21&t=DBsX4ShZn3_iRg_wVz62kw

On the contrary.

It wasn't reckless at all. It was measured, considered, and gave a clear message to the intended audience.

There is every reason why the leader of the free world should say what we are thinking and hoping for, and no reason not to say it.

Indeed, it would have been reckless not to say it. You can see that appeasement of dictators, especially this one, doesn't work.

You are wrong.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

On the contrary.

It wasn't reckless at all. It was measured, considered, and gave a clear message to the intended audience.

There is every reason why the leader of the free world should say what we are thinking and hoping for, and no reason not to say it.

Indeed, it would have been reckless not to say it. You can see that appeasement of dictators, especially this one, doesn't work.

You are wrong.

It's about time that someone stood up to Putin and told him some cold truths.

Appeasing and cowering at every opportunity gets us nowhere at best.

 

[birthofanorange]

It's about time that someone stood up to Putin and told him some cold truths.

Appeasing and cowering at every opportunity gets us nowhere at best.

What does it get us, 'at worst'?

 

[Hugo Rune]

We might be thinking it, we might all be hoping for it, for the leader of the free world to say it, in my opinion is quite reckless.

https://twitter.com/paulembery/status/1507842164298031104?s=21&t=DBsX4ShZn3_iRg_wVz62kw

We shouldn’t under estimate the USA or the propaganda war.

The statement along with subsequent row-back was surely very much planned. The democrats very rarely free style like Trump.

The intended message was sent.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

What does it get us, 'at worst'?

WW2 for a previous generation.
Invasion of Ukraine following appeasement over Crimea for ours.

 

[dazzer6666]

Massive backtracking going on around Biden’s words now

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Massive backtracking going on around Biden’s words now

The message has been delivered though. Putin has been warned, regardless of diplomatic niceties in the follow up. Well played Biden.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

What does it get us, 'at worst'?

At worst ?

Putin taking countries one by one while we cower away until he is at the border with France ( if we are lucky he stops there ).

Mass deportation to Siberia. Public executions in European city squares. Mainland Europe being a nazi continent ruled from Moscow. A living hell east of France. The total failure of humanity.

Putin needs to be told a few cold hard home truths and for this I applaud Biden.

 

[Eric the meek]

'Not for Biden to decide if Putin leads Russia - Kremlin'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60856533 19:15 26 Mar

To recap, Biden, gave a speech with comments aimed directly at the Russian people, closing with: "For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power."

'According to Reuters, a Kremlin spokesman responded: "That's not for Biden to decide. The president of Russia is elected by Russians.'

Isn't it good to see the Kremlin to reject the idea of regime change from another nation, and embrace the ballot box?

It's just a pity they didn't deploy this excellent idea in Ukraine.

 

[drew]

At worst ?

Putin taking countries one by one while we cower away until he is at the border with France ( if we are lucky he stops there ).

Mass deportation to Siberia. Public executions in European city squares. Mainland Europe being a nazi continent ruled from Moscow. A living hell east of France. The total failure of humanity.

Hear what you are saying and agree in principle although he couldn't get to the borders of France without going through another NATO country first would would of course trigger clause 5.