Gene Simmons ( Kiss ) giving it straight

[Tyrone Biggums]

I am double jabbed and living in Australia.

Having said that i am feeling less and less comfortable with the narrative being peddled around this subject. It feels more and more totalitarian as time moves on.

I am not comfortable with forcing vaccines on people, nor restricting their freedoms if they choose not to have one (you have to have a passport over here to go out for a drink or cafe - really just forcing people to have one) or shutting down debate around this subject and not listening to alternate voices. It all makes me very uncomfortable.

Heightened by the fact we live in a state with a power drunk totalitarian/authoritarian at the helm.

The powers he wishes to grant himself are obscene.

To quote Christopher Blanden QC, president of the Victorian Bar...

"Blanden said that the Stasi police in former East Germany “would have been more than happy with the range of powers if they were given it”.


No reason this kind of thing couldn't happen in other places.

It's people like those in this thread who embolden Governments to push for as much power as they can to control the population.

 

[BeHereNow]

Because in Israel the vast majority have been jab. Statistically this is a given as the there are very few left who haven’t been vaccinated. [emoji2369]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don’t think so, this is a specific study. 0.0086% of people who had already been infected got it again, but 0.0578% of vaccinated people got it again as well. It’s not much difference really, but there it is. If you’ve already had it, there’s not much point in having the vaccine, T cell immunity is much better and longer lasting.

 

[Pevenseagull]

I only got my booster to get the smug satisfaction that I've done by little bit to contribute to reducing the chances of people dying of covid before something else.

On a selfish level that includes people I know who've come off the back of some pretty grizzly chemotherapy/ organ transplants/ over 70yrs old who I'd like to see soon.

Also, on a selfish level, I want to do all I can to reduce the work load on an overstretched NHS.

Also, on a selfish level, so I reduce the chances of getting sick.

If I was truly selfless I wouldn't be a sheep and would have followed my gut/ facebook logic and listened to the bloke who played Deuce Bigelow Male Gigolo/ one or both of Right Said Fred/ Piers Corbyn/ that nutter that Trump liked who said that miscarriages were due to having sex with demons or other scientific luminaries. ...


and then I would be free.

 

[Baldseagull]

I have a mate who is an anti-vaxxer, he posted some stuff up about the polio vaccine a while back and showed polio cases correlating to DDT use in the US, and how the incidence of polio dropped before the vaccine was introduced in line with a decreased use of DDT, all very convincing at first glance and accurate data. However what was omitted was that until it was understood how Polio was transmitted, DDT was sprayed when Polio cases rose, as it was thought that mosquitos or other insects were the likely vector, hence the correlation. When the electron microscope was invented, polio virus could be identified and was found to be present in the fecal matter of infected persons, and the fecal/oral route was then placed as the highest risk of infection, promoting better hygiene, particularly in and around swimming pools, this started to have an effect before a vaccine was developed.

.
Those who are concerned about the possibility of long term unknown side effects should note the known and unknown long term possible side effects of a covid infection.
Those concerned about the known increased risk of blood clots should note that the increased risk of blood clots from covid is higher.
Those concerned that a tracking device is being injected, should stop using google, social media, smartphones and any internet connected computers and possibly seek counselling for paranoia, your life is not that interesting to anyone other than people that want to sell you shit.

 

[BadFish]

Not as uncomfortable as having a tube stuffed into your airways to keep you alive.

I prefer carrot to stick though.
https://news.sky.com/video/covid-19...-in-vienna-for-customers-getting-jab-12464792

I would be interested to know how likely this is to occur if mixing in the pub with vaccinated people now that I am double vaccinated?

I would have thought that as I am vaccinated I am fairly safe from the extremes of the virus, no matter who I mix with?

My understanding of how vaccines have worked in the past is that once you get to a certain % those unvaccinated among us pose a minimal threat.

 

[Baldseagull]

Don’t think so, this is a specific study. 0.0086% of people who had already been infected got it again, but 0.0578% of vaccinated people got it again as well. It’s not much difference really, but there it is. If you’ve already had it, there’s not much point in having the vaccine, T cell immunity is much better and longer lasting.

You will get a better immune response from "hybrid" immunity, that is from a dose of the real thing, plus the vaccine. This is better than either covid alone or vaccine alone stimulated immune response.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x

 

[BadFish]

Heightened by the fact we live in a state with a power drunk totalitarian/authoritarian at the helm.

The powers he wishes to grant himself are obscene.

To quote Christopher Blanden QC, president of the Victorian Bar...

"Blanden said that the Stasi police in former East Germany “would have been more than happy with the range of powers if they were given it”.


No reason this kind of thing couldn't happen in other places.

It's people like those in this thread who embolden Governments to push for as much power as they can to control the population.

Definitely concerning

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...alling-new-pandemic-laws-20211027-p593n8.html

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Definitely concerning

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...alling-new-pandemic-laws-20211027-p593n8.html

Especially when you read "allowed for indefinite detention of people who breach restrictions"

 

[Pevenseagull]

I have a mate who is an anti-vaxxer, he posted some stuff up about the polio vaccine a while back and showed polio cases correlating to DDT use in the US, and how the incidence of polio dropped before the vaccine was introduced in line with a decreased use of DDT, all very convincing at first glance and accurate data. However what was omitted was that until it was understood how Polio was transmitted, DDT was sprayed when Polio cases rose, as it was thought that mosquitos or other insects were the likely vector, hence the correlation. When the electron microscope was invented, polio virus could be identified and was found to be present in the fecal matter of infected persons, and the fecal/oral route was then placed as the highest risk of infection, promoting better hygiene, particularly in and around swimming pools, this started to have an effect before a vaccine was developed.

I've got a mate from university (30years ago) who thinks Alfred Russel Wallace was right about smallpox vaccines/ water quality in the 1880s (he wasn't) ... I've only really stayed in touch with him because he sends me excellent Grateful Dead bootlegs every few years. I reckon he only likes ARW because he had a better beard than Darwin. Evidently he smokes a LOT of weed.

 

[BeHereNow]

You will get a better immune response from "hybrid" immunity, that is from a dose of the real thing, plus the vaccine. This is better than either covid alone or vaccine alone stimulated immune response.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x

Good if it’s true, but considering the risks and that there is an extremely small chance of catching it again, plus also the incredibly high survival rates for someone my age with natural immunity, I don’t think there’s much point.

 

[Pevenseagull]

You will get a better immune response from "hybrid" immunity, that is from a dose of the real thing, plus the vaccine. This is better than either covid alone or vaccine alone stimulated immune response.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x

sure


but I'd rather get the disease when I've got a nice suite of antibodies to spot it and respond, rather than get it raw.

that's actually how vaccines work




edit

should have read the article first


I like the bit that starts:


‘Not surprising’

 

[Baldseagull]

I would be interested to know how likely this is to occur if mixing in the pub with vaccinated people now that I am double vaccinated?

I would have thought that as I am vaccinated I am fairly safe from the extremes of the virus, no matter who I mix with?

My understanding of how vaccines have worked in the past is that once you get to a certain % those unvaccinated among us pose a minimal threat.

Less likely if you are vaccinated, ever less likely the more people are vaccinated. There will not likely be the same sort of herd immunity that we get from some other vaccines, for a number of reasons, one of which being that immunity wanes for this virus, another being that other species can carry the virus, so it seems unlikely that we will get to a point where carriers can't find anyone at all to pass it on to, but we can reduce the opportunities, and reduce the severity of cases.

 

[BadFish]

Especially when you read "allowed for indefinite detention of people who breach restrictions"

I must admit I am a bit confused as to if this bill is for ongoing laws after the pandemic or for pandemic special powers.

I will have a look elsewhere and see if I can find it explained a little clearer.

 

[Baldseagull]

sure


but I'd rather get the disease when I've got a nice suite of antibodies to spot it and respond, rather than get it raw.

that's actually how vaccines work

Yeah, I was responding to someone who said no point in getting the vaccine if they had had the real thing already.

 

[Baldseagull]

Good if it’s true, but considering the risks and that there is an extremely small chance of catching it again, plus also the incredibly high survival rates for someone my age with natural immunity, I don’t think there’s much point.

I think you are placing more weight on the risks in getting the vaccine than is due, especially if you are weighing it as heavier than the risk of reinfection. Whatever your age, and survival rates for that bracket, they could be higher with the vaccine, and there is more than just surviving to worry about, many suffer months of weakness.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Yeah, I was responding to someone who said no point in getting the vaccine if they had had the real thing already.

you people with your peer reviewed papers from a highly respected scientific journals .... coming 'round here with your well reasoned and informed arguments

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have a great weekend

 

[Pevenseagull]

...anyway, back to the 'demon' in the room ... does anyone know what does Ace Frehley thinks?

and the guitar solo on this is ****ing brilliant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DHbCYSu_w4

 

[BeHereNow]

I think you are placing more weight on the risks in getting the vaccine than is due, especially if you are weighing it as heavier than the risk of reinfection. Whatever your age, and survival rates for that bracket, they could be higher with the vaccine, and there is more than just surviving to worry about, many suffer months of weakness.

You could say the same about flu, but no one’s urging me to get the vaccine for that. The chances of being reinfected are incredibly small, the chances of being very ill with it is also are very small, so I’ll take my chances thanks. People can get the vaccine as much as they want, if it does the job then it should protect them, they don’t need me to have it.

 

[BadFish]

Especially when you read "allowed for indefinite detention of people who breach restrictions"

I must admit I am a bit confused as to if this bill is for ongoing laws after the pandemic or for pandemic special powers.

I will have a look elsewhere and see if I can find it explained a little clearer.

So it seems that all this is in reference to new laws for declaring a pandemic in the future. My concerns are more about they way we are coming out of this one. I would like to be told that things will get back to normal for both vaxed and non vaxed people, and when this will happen.

In terms of the new legislation

Blandan has said that his comment was hyperbolic

"Interviewed by Virginia Trioli on ABC Radio Melbourne on Thursday, Blanden was asked if he considered the Stasi reference a “bit of hyperbole”. To which he responded, with complete frankness: “Well, of course it’s a bit of hyperbole but it has got everyone’s attention.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/in...e/news-story/2af1025ce74cd0972b84544ecbd5ff5f

Much like The article in the Australian - no surprise there

The Guardian seems a little more balance and gives a good overview of the concerns of the bill.

What are people’s concerns with the legislation?

The Victorian opposition leader, Matthew Guy, argues the legislation is “the most extreme of its kind” and an “attack on democracy” because it imbues too much power in the premier to make the pandemic declaration. He vowed to dump the legislation if elected at the 2022 state election.

The Law Institute of Victoria also raised concerns that the declaration can be in place indefinitely, with wide powers conferred on the premier, health minister and authorised officers.

“Many powers appear to be an unnecessary infringement on democratic rights and freedoms, with little oversight offered by a truly independent body,” it said.
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The institute said there was also no timeframe for the maximum period of detention, or clarity on where people would be detained, and there was no independent external merits review on the detention review process.

It said the privacy protections do not go far enough, and the allowance for the sharing of personal information for “permitted purposes” should be reconsidered.

The Victorian Bar has said there is “grossly insufficient” parliamentary oversight of the new pandemic order powers granted to the health minister, and a disallowance of an order should not require approval of both houses of parliament.

The bar recommended the bill be amended to limit the orders the minister can make to specific actions, like mask mandates or restricting movements, and any catch-all power to make other orders have a time limit unless both houses of parliament approve.

The Victorian Bar called for the bill to be delayed until the issues raised had been considered and the bill amended.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-new-laws-work-and-why-are-they-controversial

the ABC fact check page also seem to have a fairly balanced take on the prospective legislation.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...-andrews-new-proposed-pandemic-laws/100613606

It looks to me like their is certainly cause for some concern but not quite as dramatic as previously made out. Hopefully these will be addressed in parliament as the bill passes through. I also hope that the bar association gets to discuss the document too.

 

[BadFish]

Less likely if you are vaccinated, ever less likely the more people are vaccinated. There will not likely be the same sort of herd immunity that we get from some other vaccines, for a number of reasons, one of which being that immunity wanes for this virus, another being that other species can carry the virus, so it seems unlikely that we will get to a point where carriers can't find anyone at all to pass it on to, but we can reduce the opportunities, and reduce the severity of cases.

Yes I agree with what you say here. My concern though is that we are having certain freedoms removed for those who choose not to be vaccinated. Before I am comfortable that people who choose not to be vaccinated should have those freedoms curtailed I would like to know just how much risk they pose to society.

Your answer of "Not as uncomfortable as having a tube stuffed into your airways to keep you alive. " suggests that I should be prepared to ignore my reservations about people's freedom being taken away because those people still represent a sizable threat to my health.

I am keen to know how big that threat is?

I could be wrong but my understanding is it is not a large enough threat to warrant stopping people from going for a beer or a coffee if they choose not to be vaccinated.