Gene Simmons ( Kiss ) giving it straight

[BadFish]

I do not believe there is a solid number anyone can give you, the Delta variant is better at transmission than others, and the difference between the number of viral particles in the breath of an unvaccinated covid sufferer and a vaccinated one are not large with Delta, however the vaccinated person will be infectious for a shorter period. Other variants, the vaccines are much better at suppressing transmission. The Delta variant will have arisen in a single person, and Delta is now the dominant strain in the world, and became so in less than a year after it was first seen in India, because it is more easily transmitted. The next mutation may make no difference at all between having had the vaccines or not, it may avoid triggering the immune response from the existing vaccines entirely.

An unvaccinated person is going to have the virus replicating many more times within them than if they were vaccinated, each replication can produce a mutation, and eventually we could end up with a variant that is better able to avoid the immune response the vaccine gives us, it is a small chance of actually happening, but the consequence could be devastating. We could end up with that anyway with breakthrough cases in vaccinated people, but it is ever less likely, with increased levels of vaccination.

My previous comment was blunt and not really fair, it is of course reasonable to look at the laws proposed and how their consequences, but it is the people refusing the vaccine that gives the impetus for the legislation, and the consequences of lower rates of vaccination are that more people will get covid, and some will need intubation.

I am not up to speed with the legislation being proposed in Australia, and maybe it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. However, all governments should be looking at what powers could be useful in containing not only this, but the next pandemic, and where appropriate, making those laws available. most laws are in place on account of a relatively small number of ****wits in society, having a significant impact on the rest of us. Vaccine dodgers are mostly ****wits, and we may need to legislate for them, but I would prefer it if they just developed a bit more of a thoughtful attitude to it, and did the right thing voluntarily, they mostly know it is the right thing to do, but have these nagging fears from watching too many conspiracy nut videos, or alternative medicine practioners. I had one guy try and tell me that the human immune system was always going to be better than a man made vaccine trying to fight infections, totally missing the point that a vaccine just gives the human immune system a heads up on what might be coming it's way and totally relies on the human immune system to actually fight the virus.

Thank you for this reply and again I totally agree with what you are saying. (Apart from calling people ****wits - I am not convinced that this is the way to influence people).

There are always going to be people who resist this stuff. There is plenty of evidence and information out there about how to implement new ideas and change. The more reticent people in this scenario are simply a reality that has to be factored into the process. As are those who will not accept the change at all.

This leaves us a problem to solve. What is making me uncomfortable is the method our government has chosen to solve it. If they feel the need to use the sledgehammer then they simply must have the evidence to back it up. I am struggling to find the evidence that backs up their strategy. I understand the this is new territory for everyone but surely we are basing our strategy in something.

This particular strategy for solving the problem the more resistant members of society feels punitive and decisive. It is causing people to feel uncomfortable raising concerns about strategy. It is causing a whole load of name calling and dismissing of people with a differing opinion or viewpoint. I am just not comfortable with that when it is based on little evidence.

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[BadFish]

The irony with this comment is that I'm the only one that discusses the science of immunity.

Everyone else is like "gEt VaCCiNe CoS sCiEnCE & U KiLZ PPL"

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. I know the government have presented the 'facts' in a very simplistic way in order to push the vaccine for everyone when it was once important to, but it's such a complex issue. The reality is that not everyone needs to be vaccinated. It makes no difference after a certain point how many people are vaccinated when we're dealing with a disease which isn't going away, as long as those who are vulnerable are.

What is also ironic it that you are claiming to be the only one who is discussing the science of immunity yet:

- You have ignored several requests to provided your scientific evidence that forms your belief that you see immune to Covid.

- you have provided no evidence to back up any of the claims you are making about immunity.

- you have not told us the qualifications you hold to show that you have an understanding in this area.

It doesn't come across as very scientific.

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[The Clamp]

Restrictions creeping back in across Europe. Especially for the unvaccinated. Eg Berlin closing bars and restaurants to the unvaccinated.

Take heed [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION]

 

[Brighton & Love]

Restrictions creeping back in across Europe. Especially for the unvaccinated. Eg Berlin closing bars and restaurants to the unvaccinated.

Take heed [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION]

Are you not concerned at the potential shortage in hospitality staff this may cause to places like Berlin?

 

[The Clamp]

Are you not concerned at the potential shortage in hospitality staff this may cause to places like Berlin?

Don’t reply to me with such stupidity again.

 

[Brighton & Love]

Don’t reply to me with such stupidity again.

I apologise Sir.

Looks like Australia is having a bit of difficulty in the hospitality staff department. I wonder if locking down the unvaccinated might have the same result as Australia's lockdown?

 

[BadFish]

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101


Interesting article here on what we have been discussing on this thread. Immunity through vaccine v immunity through infection doesn't seem to have a conclusive answer yet.

It sounds like they don't know how long immunity can last through infection although it is broader. Some suggestions that those who have had Covid can wait for the vaccine and then only need one jab (although some also believe are not going to provide better immunity).

Most seem to conclude that figuring who has what immunity based on infection is not doable from a logistics point of view and the general idea off "better safe than sorry" suggests it is more sensible to vaccinate everyone . . . Presumably this is what is driving the current strategy to vaccinate everyone.

Others of course will interpret this article in a different way as there still seems to be much discussion and disagreement on the issue.

Which begs the question of [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION] : If the scientific world seems to still be figuring this stuff out what makes you so sure you are making the right choice? You must have some very compelling evidence back up your choices given the risks to yourself and others?

The article seems to agree that immunity will wane (sooner from immunity via infection) but they don't agree about how long this can take. Mustafa you have no evidence that you have had Covid ( you say it is s statistical certainty - no real evidence for this either) so no idea when you had it. So how can you be so certain that you are still immune? When do you calculations tell you that you will need a booster?





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[BadFish]

I apologise Sir.

Looks like Australia is having a bit of difficulty in the hospitality staff department. I wonder if locking down the unvaccinated might have the same result as Australia's lockdown?

So you are saying that our use of vaccination passports has caused this shortage in hospitality staff?

I haven't read anything to suggest that. Could you post more detail on this? Your video didn't really explain it.

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[The Clamp]

I apologise Sir.

Looks like Australia is having a bit of difficulty in the hospitality staff department. I wonder if locking down the unvaccinated might have the same result as Australia's lockdown?

Australia’s lockdowns have been colossal, nothing like Europe. From what I have seen anyway.

 

[BadFish]

Australia’s lockdowns have been colossal, nothing like Europe. From what I have seen anyway.

I am struggling with the logic.

Surely the restrictions on unvaccinated people will alleviate problems with a hospitality staff shortage not make them worse. In the short term at least

Less customers means less workers needed?

 

[Razzoo]

I am struggling with the logic.

Surely the restrictions on unvaccinated people will alleviate problems with a hospitality staff shortage not make them worse. In the short term at least

Less customers means less workers needed?

Also less customers means less profit means more businesses shutting.

 

[The Clamp]

Oh I think we’ll see a fair few ardent anti-vaxxers suddenly seeing sense when they cannot go anywhere or do anything.
Sometimes the slower witted of us need a helping hand, a steer in the right direction.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I don't believe that it will save anyones life - EVEN if I'm not immune, which I am, at this point in the pandemic, as people are as protected against covid as they're ever going to be.

If an old or vulnerable person isn't exposed to covid thorugh infected person A, or infected person B, or C, or D, and so on, they will continue to be exposed to the virus until they do inevitably do have the potential to catch it. Covid is part of life now and it's not going away. Most carriers of covid are vaccinated people now. The only important thing remaining is to keep old and vulnerable as safe as possible through booster jabs, as they WILL encounter covid. We just need to ensure they are best equipped to not have severe symptoms once they do.

In regards to 'the science', clearly you and others haven't tried to learn much other than what you read in the headlines a year ago.

So no, I don't believe getting vaccinated will save anyone's life for two key reasons:

- I am certain I am already immune
- Even if I wasn't, vulnerable people will already be exposed to covid through other means, including the vaccinated.

Over 200,000 people caught covid for the first time, during the last week. Were they all as immune as you?

 

[Baldseagull]

It's not magic, it's exactly what the immune system does when it is in the presence of an antigen, in this case covid.

As far as I'm aware there are absolutely no advantages from vaccine sourced immunity to natural immunity. I haven't done too much reading on the subject, but there is research that has found that natural immunity is superior to covid vaccines... and that's not surprising considering the immune system learns to attack covid in its natural form, rather than targetting just part of the virus.

Firstly, there is research that shows vaccine and real virus exposure produces a higher immunity than either one alone. The evidence is that you will have greater immunity, even if you already have some.

Secondly, you are only guessing that you have any current antibodies at all.

 

[Baldseagull]

Thank you for this reply and again I totally agree with what you are saying. (Apart from calling people ****wits - I am not convinced that this is the way to influence people).

There are always going to be people who resist this stuff. There is plenty of evidence and information out there about how to implement new ideas and change. The more reticent people in this scenario are simply a reality that has to be factored into the process. As are those who will not accept the change at all.

This leaves us a problem to solve. What is making me uncomfortable is the method our government has chosen to solve it. If they feel the need to use the sledgehammer then they simply must have the evidence to back it up. I am struggling to find the evidence that backs up their strategy. I understand the this is new territory for everyone but surely we are basing our strategy in something.

This particular strategy for solving the problem the more resistant members of society feels punitive and decisive. It is causing people to feel uncomfortable raising concerns about strategy. It is causing a whole load of name calling and dismissing of people with a differing opinion or viewpoint. I am just not comfortable with that when it is based on little evidence.

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After 2 years of this pandemic, variants that are more transmissible emerging several times, lock downs and job losses, not being able to visit dying relatives, losing people to the virus, having the NHS put almost everything else on hold, anyone not getting the vaccine if they have been offered it is a ****wit

 

[Baldseagull]

The ultimate and most fundamental point in my continuing decision not to get the vaccine, is that I don't believe it will protect me or others around me, any more than is already the case.

You can believe any old nonsense, but in this case you are almost certainly wrong. Even if you have had covid several times, a vaccine shot will increase your ability to fight the virus, and you can not be certain that your immune system has ever had to fight the virus yet.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

You've repeated this weird authoritarian fantasy where unvaccinated people have their freedoms taken away several times now.

It's not going to happen. There's no need for it. We're long past the point in the pandemic where healthy people need to get vaccinated.

Except it is happening, granted not in this country at the moment - but I wouldnt rule anything out

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION] has a very good case.

I'm going to go out and have a good few beers lunchtime and then drive home. I've driven over well over 1M miles in 40 odd years, never had an accident, driven loads of different cars, vans, trucks etc and have passed my advanced driving test, so I think there is NO chance of me having an accident and putting anyone in hospital or killing anyone. Obviously, I'm going to take precautions and not get completely and utterly shit faced.

Don't get me wrong, that drink drive law was an absolute game changer, but now all the other drunks are off the road it means I'll be even safer

In fact, I am so sure that I'll be safe that I wouldn't want anyone to worry that I might kill their friends or Family

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

I think [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION] has a very good case.

I'm going to go out and have a good few beers lunchtime and then drive home. I've driven over well over 1M miles in 40 odd years, never had an accident, driven loads of different cars, vans, trucks etc and have passed my advanced driving test, so I think there is NO chance of me having an accident and putting anyone in hospital or killing anyone. Obviously, I'm going to take precautions and not get completely and utterly shit faced.

Don't get me wrong, that drink drive law was an absolute game changer, but now all the other drunks are off the road it means I'll be even safer

In fact, I am so sure that I'll be safe that I wouldn't want anyone to worry that I might kill their friends or Family

Boom...

And there's the flawed argument in a nutshell...

 

[The Clamp]

You've repeated this weird authoritarian fantasy where unvaccinated people have their freedoms taken away several times now.

It's not going to happen. There's no need for it. We're long past the point in the pandemic where healthy people need to get vaccinated.

Are you still trying to convince people you know what you’re talking about? Jiminy Cricket! You aren’t half persistent. Maybe just quietly get on with it, safe in the knowledge you know more than trained pharmacists, doctors, virologists, zootropic experts and research scientists