[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

Eric the meek · May 7, 2024

raymondo said:
Scholz is a funny mix: appeasing statements sometimes, then happy to be the guy making this announcement.

Not unsurprisingly, the west, or at least Europe seems to be acting in concert. This from Scholz, following Cameron's announcement giving Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons on Russian targets inside and outside Ukraine, both after Macron had been 'mulling over' boots on the ground in Ukraine.

I assume it is all designed to crank up the pressure on Putin, which he mentioned in his inauguration speech:

'We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us.'

raymondo · May 7, 2024

Eric the meek said:
Not unsurprisingly, the west, or at least Europe seems to be acting in concert. This from Scholz, following Cameron's announcement giving Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons on Russian targets inside and outside Ukraine, both after Macron had been 'mulling over' boots on the ground in Ukraine.

I assume it is all designed to crank up the pressure on Putin, which he mentioned in his inauguration speech:

'We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us.'

Yes, good point, Europe clearly acting in concert on this.

The only thing that's halted the development of Russia is of course Putin's war and domestic restrictions.
Although by 'development' he probably means 'expansion by invasion'.

Binney on acid · May 7, 2024

Cooperation with Russia = Ukrainian capitulation to Putin’s subjugation.God forbid!

Eric the meek · May 7, 2024

Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.

fly high · May 7, 2024

Eric the meek said:
Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.

He has a very easy way out. Withdraw all his troops & go back to the original 2014 borders. That will show he is really serious about peace.

I know can't, won't happen, it would mean he has to accept defeat.

Mellotron · May 7, 2024

fly high said:
He has a very easy way out. Withdraw all his troops & go back to the original 2014 borders. That will show he is really serious about peace.

I know can't, won't happen, it would mean he has to accept defeat.

How is that in any way easy? If he did that, he'd be dead within 48 hours.

Completely signing his own death warrant, and would be insane to do it.

fly high · May 7, 2024

Mellotron said:
How is that in any way easy? If he did that, he'd be dead within 48 hours.

Completely signing his own death warrant, and would be insane to do it.

Which is why I said; can't, won't happen.

Dibdab · May 7, 2024

Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!

Mellotron · May 7, 2024

fly high said:
Which is why I said; can't, won't happen.

So he doesn’t have a very easy way out.

raymondo · May 7, 2024

The first 4 minutes of Davydov's vlog are interesting. Seems that Ukrainian boat drones got into (the highly protected...) Sevastopol harbour, although they didn't find a juicy target...this time.
Also, some video evidence of one of these boat drones having anti aircraft missiles (?) mounted on the back.

sparkie · May 7, 2024

Dibdab said:
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!

That won't save years more bloodshed.

It would just create a forever kill zone for Russian invaders along with permanent sanctions on Russia.

The only viable long term solution is Russia leaving the 2014 borders of Ukraine. The earlier they do it, the better for Russia.

essbee1 · May 7, 2024

Dibdab said:
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!

You contradict yourself in the first two sentences.

Eric the meek · May 7, 2024

Dibdab said:
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!

Russia - or to be more precise Putinism - believes Ukraine should not exist. That Ukraine should be part of Russia. He said that prior to the invasion, and he meant it. Putin believes all the former nations in the Soviet sphere of influence, should be a part of Russia.

Giving Russia a sense of victory will not save more years of bloodshed. On the contrary, it will achieve the direct, polar opposite. More bloodshed. It will embolden Putin (or Putin's successor) to attack other nations that Russia believes should be a part of Russia.

A sense of defeat will not stop Russian imperialism either, but it will slow it down. Make it think twice.

What - may - stop Russian imperialism is an impenetrable defensive barrier, a defensive alliance called NATO. The 'expansion' of NATO was cited as a reason for the invasion. This is an important lesson of history. It is a direct reason why Sweden and Finland have joined NATO since the invasion.

beorhthelm · May 7, 2024

the comments from Putin sound like nothing more than a leader placing blame on the other side. the West wont talk, it's all their fault. the only chink in the display is the acknowledgment of not developing, there's obviously difficulties and better to say they are others fault.

that said, if Russia does want an exit what is going to be a possible solution? something will have to be conceded to end the conflict.

dangull · May 8, 2024

Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Nobby · May 8, 2024

dangull said:
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Putin has proved himself to be this century’s Hitler.

chickens · May 8, 2024

dangull said:
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Possibly, but on the other hand, perhaps it was only the expansion of NATO that held Putin from making a move as long as he did. We can all play “what if” but it’s the reality here and now we have to deal with.

NATO is a defensive alliance, I can understand any country within Putin’s reach and not willing to be controlled via Moscow seeking its protection.

The Clamp · May 8, 2024

Eric the meek said:
Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.

I think we can take any speech from Russia, especially those aimed at the West as nothing more than playing the Statesman. Posturing.

Speeches that are written in minutes and mean nothing.

Russia will continue to invade other nations and nothing will stop Putin short of brutal and overwhelming military action.

Personally, I think anyone who doesn’t see that is kidding themselves.

Eric the meek · May 8, 2024

dangull said:
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Are you attempting to rewrite history? The passage of time has shown that the reason NATO was formed is still there, and was still there all the while Putin was pretending to be friendly with western countries.

Your argument of further nations not joining NATO beyond 1989 on the off chance that a tyrannical control freak in sole unchallenged charge of a nuclear super power, would turn out to be a benign benefactor, doesn't really have legs does it?

essbee1 · May 8, 2024

dangull said:
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Also, Putin didn't suddenly wake up one day and think "wouldn't it be nice to have all those countries back under our control - let's invade one". It's his long-held belief. So your argument falls down a bit there too.

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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

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